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Equivalence between Israeli Self-Defense and a Tyrant's Crackdown

Seeded on Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:01 AM EDT
Read ArticleArticle Source: contentions
israel, middle-east, muslim, palestinians, arabs, border, war, syria, terrorist, arab, muslims, invasion, palestinian, borders, jewish, palestine, jews, islam, israeli, world-news, islamic, golan-heights, assad, invade, jew, extremist, golan, islamic-extremist
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Equivalence between Israeli Self-Defense and a Tyrant’s Crackdown

Omri Ceren 06.06.2011 - 12:39 PM

Yesterday was “Naska Day,” as Evelyn points out, the day on which the Syrians commemorate their failure to invade Israel by trying to invade Israel. Since we live in a media environment that’s fundamentally insane, partisans with press cards lined up to condemn the Israelis for defending their borders. The problem, of course, is that it’s hard to justify hysteria over Israel when Assad has killed over 1,000 Syrians in the last few months. Critics would point to the disproportionate obsession with the Jewish State and suggest that it had long ago reached pathological levels.

The criticism would apply doubly since the IDF was blaring warning announcements across the border and limiting itself to shots at rioters’ feet. Assad’s snipers and thugs, in contrast, are mowing down people in the streets. Just yesterday 35 protesters were killed in Jisr al-Shughour and Khan Sheikhoun, a number that by qualitative and quantitative measures exceeds what happened at the Golan border.

Quite the quandary. How can one justify focusing on the Israeli-Syrian border when objectively worse violence is taking place deeper inside Syria? This is a problem analogous to the one that anti-Israel journalists and human rights activists always face. They have to justify condemning Israeli operations despite how Palestinian atrocities (brainwashing children into becoming terrorists, targeting civilian centers with rockets, etc.) are much worse. In response, an entire cottage industry has taken root to manufacture moral and tactical equivalences between Israelis and Palestinians.

Not coincidentally, media outlets yesterday stumbled into the same trick.

 

Yahoo’s approach was obnoxious but not blatant. Recognizing the need at least to gesture in the general direction of Assad’s atrocities in northern Syria, they posted a story about the violence headlined “35 reported killed in crackdown in northern Syria.” To illustrate the post, however, they inserted pictures of the riot on the Golan with the caption “Demonstrators flee Israeli fired tear gas as they gather along Syria’s border with Israel.”

Some people might accuse the editors of intentionally trying to obscure the nature of the violence, and of drawing a straightforward equivalence between Assad’s brutal crackdown and Israel’s defense of its sovereignty. But it’s more likely a function of how there just aren’t many pictures coming out of the cities that Assad is leveling, while the regime helpfully opened up the Golan area to stringers and journalists. Since Yahoo’s editors needed something to illustrate Syrian violence, they reached for the only pictures that were available—which is exactly, of course, what the regime was counting on. Why media outlets would want to make themselves willing dupes for tyrants is a different question, but at least this wasn’t an issue of explicit equivocation.

Bloomberg’s editors and journalists don’t have that excuse. The outlet published breathless a breathless report with the headline “Syria, Israel Target Separate Protests in Middle East.” The lead was even worse:

Israeli forces fired on a crowd marking the anniversary of the 1967 Middle East War by trying to cross the border from Syria, which Israelis said was an effort by Syria’s regime to divert attention from its internal woes. Inside Syria, forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad killed 25 protesters and a general strike took place for the second day yesterday in the Syrian city of Hama in mourning for dozens of people killed there last week, according to the Web site Syrian Observatory, which monitors the unrest.

Anti-Israel partisans really, really want an excuse to focus on Jerusalem’s self-defense rather than Damascus’s atrocities. But this approach is lazy, and even putting aside the obvious lack of professionalism, it’s tired.

Media outlets should really switch back to the theory that Israeli self-defense on Golan bolsters Assad by giving him a distraction. That’s a transparently poor argument—Syrians know that Assad is just using the Golan to create a distraction, so in theory they’re not going to be unwillingly distracted if they’re already committed to reform—but at least it’s an argument. These equivocation gambits are just strained.

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  • Regions: Israel , Palestinian State
  • Public Discussion (153)
jackzg-

Since we live in a media environment that’s fundamentally insane, partisans with press cards lined up to condemn the Israelis for defending their borders. The problem, of course, is that it’s hard to justify hysteria over Israel when Assad has killed over 1,000 Syrians in the last few months. Critics would point to the disproportionate obsession with the Jewish State and suggest that it had long ago reached pathological levels.

  • 13 votes
#1 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:02 AM EDT
infrared

why place israel to low standards? there are many of those who clamor israel to be the best nation, etc and that's why it gets the heat. if israel isn't put up on some pedistool then the things they do wrong wouldn't be pointed out.

but here it all is saying two wrongs make a right.

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:40 AM EDT
Grisham

why place israel to low standards?

Who said they were being held to low standards? They protected their border which is their job.

there are many of those who clamor israel to be the best nation, etc and that's why it gets the heat. if israel isn't put up on some pedistool then the things they do wrong wouldn't be pointed out.

Not sure who says they're the 'best' nation. It's a moot point. They ARE a country. A country protects their borders and their citizens.

but here it all is saying two wrongs make a right.

No. Only one wrong. The protesters should not have rushed the fence and heeded the warnings of the Israeli's.

  • 13 votes
#1.2 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:47 AM EDT
infrared

Who said they were being held to low standards? They protected their border which is their job.

america has border protection they don't shoot.

Not sure who says they're the 'best' nation. It's a moot point. They ARE a country. A country protects their borders and their citizens.

yeah i heard that card already, defense is also settlements.

No. Only one wrong. The protesters should not have rushed the fence and heeded the warnings of the Israeli's.

so shooting innocent civilians isn't wrong if israel does it?

syria responded with force to armed individuals, i disagree with that strongly but somehow unarmed individuals can be slaughtered by israel. no sense in that.

  • 6 votes
#1.3 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:06 AM EDT
Grisham

america has border protection they don't shoot.

Ask Mexican drug cartels or Mexican illegal immigrants if the Americans don't shoot if they try to breach the border.

Sure they do.

yeah i heard that card already, defense is also settlements.

Semantics. Look at a world map and see the border. Don't want to get shot? Don't try to cross illegally while bull horns are blaring at you to stop or they'll shoot.

so shooting innocent civilians isn't wrong if israel does it?

They aren't innocent civilians. Once they left their homes, grabbed some Molatov Cocktails and decided to march across a border into another country illegally, they became illegal protesters on foreign soil. They aren't Israeli citizens holding a peaceful demonstration. If they want a peaceful demonstration, they should stay in their own country and hold one.

syria responded with force to armed individuals, i disagree with that strongly but somehow unarmed individuals can be slaughtered by israel. no sense in that.

Syria is trying to deflect the world from having a closer look at how they're killing thousands of 'innocent civilians'.

  • 12 votes
#1.4 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:20 AM EDT
HydeWhyte

infrared

america has border protection they don't shoot.

Really? You might want to tell that to the US Department of Homeland Security, FBI, ATF and the Coast Guard, not to mention the Border Patrol.

  • 10 votes
#1.5 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:48 AM EDT
worldcurmudgeon

Arabs should be settling their own affairs. I am willing to bet Assad had innocent people bused to this area and told them to march toward the border threatening them if they did not. It could also be, with an educated guess that their families were threatened as well. Why would this happen now when there are riots occurring in Syria, and Assad's troops are shooting innocent civilians? I cannot see these same innocent citizens going down to a boarder to protest Israeli occupation of Golan when they are being shot down in their own streets by their own government. Assad must think the world utterly stupid.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:50 AM EDT
Grisham

Really? You might want to tell that to the US Department of Homeland Security, FBI, ATF and the Coast Guard, not to mention the Border Patrol.

Come on HydeWhyte! We ALL know that the people responsible for US border security give everyone they meet a smile, hug and a happy face pin before letting them enter the country illegally.

  • 9 votes
#1.7 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:10 AM EDT
HydeWhyte

worldcurmudgeon,

Is it possible that the Syrian govt first instigated the border protests by providing derogatory propoganda and protester transportation to the Goaln Heights area, and is now seeking to make themselves look better in the eyes of the world community with their subsequent 'crackdown' on the border protesters? What about the possibility of staging injuries for the purpose of blaming the Israelis for causing injury the Israelis did not cause? I have heard of this type of activity with the Palestinians, such as the 'martyr' who fell out of his casket at his funeral and quickly got up and climbed back into the coffin.

  • 6 votes
#1.8 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:51 AM EDT
HydeWhyte

Grisham

Come on HydeWhyte! We ALL know that the people responsible for US border security give everyone they meet a smile, hug and a happy face pin before letting them enter the country illegally.

OK Grisham, no need to bring the TSA and their happy-pat procedure into it ;)

  • 3 votes
#1.9 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:25 AM EDT
infrared

Ask Mexican drug cartels or Mexican illegal immigrants if the Americans don't shoot if they try to breach the border.

they aren't drug dealers! what is wrong with you? so the US border patrol just snipes the illegal immigrants? seriously?

Semantics. Look at a world map and see the border. Don't want to get shot? Don't try to cross illegally while bull horns are blaring at you to stop or they'll shoot.

refugees trying to get back on their land get killed yeah semantics.

They aren't innocent civilians. Once they left their homes, grabbed some Molatov Cocktails and decided to march across a border into another country illegally, they became illegal protesters on foreign soil. They aren't Israeli citizens holding a peaceful demonstration. If they want a peaceful demonstration, they should stay in their own country and hold one.

well that is an outright lie, they were unarmed. what don't you understand about unarmed?

Syria is trying to deflect the world from having a closer look at how they're killing thousands of 'innocent civilians'.

you are defending this atrocious action, saying it is ok to kill innocent people.

  • 5 votes
#1.10 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 10:45 AM EDT
jackzg-

worldcurmudgeon,

Your presupposition proved precise. Nice work.

In a TGI survey comparing the last half of 2009 with the same period in 2008, Yediot Ahronot retained the title of most widely read newspaper in Israel. Yediot Ahronot's news website, Ynet, published this yesterday:

Washington-based members of the Reform Party of Syria said intelligence sources close to the Syrian government in Lebanon informed them that the protesters on the Syrian side of the Druze community of Majdal Shams were in fact poverty-stricken farmers paid by the Assad regime.

According to the sources, the farmers migrated over the last few years from drought-stricken northeast Syria to the south. They reached the Israel-Syria border on Sunday in the aims of reenacting "Naksa Day" events, the sources said.

The Syrian opposition group claimed that each farmer was promised $1,000 for showing up at the rally and $10,000 to their families if they are killed by IDF fire.

According to the report, the average salary of a Syrian citizen is about $200 per month, meaning that participation in Sunday's demonstration could provide a protester and his family with five months worth of financial relief.

And this comment from Alana Goodman of Commentary Magazine:

Note the heftier compensation for "martyrdom," another acknowledgment that the regime thinks its citizens are worth more dead than alive. According to the JTA, 18 rioters attempting to cross the border were killed by the IDF, which should please the Syrian government.

  • 5 votes
#1.11 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 11:29 AM EDT
Meloney

Washington-based members of the Reform Party of Syria said intelligence sources close to the Syrian government in Lebanon informed them that the protesters on the Syrian side of the Druze community of Majdal Shams were in fact poverty-stricken farmers paid by the Assad regime.

and so who is this Washington-based members of blah blah said someone said ... third hand hearsay?

Do you have the testimony of a farmer or not? No. The Assad connection pay-off story was disinformation.

In the hours following the bloodshed, the Israeli response grew increasingly contorted. Army spokespeople claimed the demonstrators “were responsible for their own deaths,” claiming they stepped on landmines. No evidence of landmine deaths was provided by the unnamed military sources, only conjecture. Next, Israel turned to its favorite Syrian cut-out in Washington, Farid Ghadry, an AIPAC member and discredited “serial entrepreneur” who is widely regarded as the Syrian version of Ahmed Chalabi — Ghadry actually met Chalabi in Richard Perle’s living room. In a statement published on the website of his astro-turfed Reform Party of Syria, Ghadry claimed that the protesters at Quneitra were not actual Palestinian refugees, but impoverished “Syrian farmers” who had been paid $1000 each by the Assad regime just to show up, and $10,000 to die. Ghadry claimed he gleaned the information from “intelligence sources close to the Assad regime in Lebanon.”

Israeli military spokespeople appear to be pushing Ghadry’s press release, because the canard immediately showed up in a report by Yediot Aharnoth’s Hanan Greenberg, one of the many military correspondents in the Israeli media who dutifully report any claim by any flack in an olive uniform as though it were a substantiated fact. “Syrian Opposition: Anti-Israel Rioters paid $1000,” read the Yediot headline. But the story has not graduated beyond the pro-Israel blogosphere, probably because Ghadry and his shell of an opposition group — it is quite clearly a neocon front organization — have no credibility in Syria or anywhere else.

http://maxblumenthal.com/2011/06/on-naksa-day-unarmed-resistance-sends-israel-into-violent-contortions/

  • 4 votes
#1.12 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:09 PM EDT
jackzg-

Well done, Meloney.

Touché.

  • 4 votes
#1.13 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:27 PM EDT
Meloney

thank you jackzg

It's seldom that substantial refutations are admitted on this topic and I sincerely appreciate the acknowledgement.

  • 4 votes
#1.14 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:41 PM EDT
aRTieA

It doesn't mean it didn't happen...

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/06/07/un.israel.golan.protests/

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay on Tuesday expressed concerns over Israeli forces' use of live ammunition against protesters along the cease-fire line between the occupied Golan Heights and Syria, as well as reports that Syrian authorities encouraged the civilians to protest in an area where landmines had been planted.

Syrian state media reported 25 protesters were killed and more than 350 wounded when Israeli soldiers opened fire on demonstrators Sunday. Lt. Col. Avital Leibovich, an Israeli military spokeswoman, said 10 people died when fire bombs thrown by protesters detonated landmines.

  • 10 votes
#1.15 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:42 PM EDT
Meloney

of course not arTieA - it means we have tainted sources. I would like to know if more concrete evidence is developed.

How many of the thousands of protesters were supposed to have been paid? And there's not credible testimony from even one? Has Lt Col Avital Leibovich furnished evidence of mine explosions? like a hole in the ground?

reports that Syrian authorities encouraged the civilians to protest

Too vague. Which "authorities"? The ones who are losing control? The ones undermining the current government? The protest organizers?

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 5:54 PM EDT
aRTieA

Good grief! Try to live in the real world. This was perpetrated by the Syrian Government and the PFLP. For you, the world would end before you would to accept the truth from an Israeli (of course unless they parroted views that you believe.)

You are trying to make an indefensible illogical argument to push the blame onto Israel and dismiss any country views.

When the news is negative about Israel, you accept any source (credible or not)

So until you can disprove the Israeli version, it stands.

  • 11 votes
#1.17 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 10:17 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Well, aRTieA, you have just described the technique of all Israel bashers, not just Meloney. However, Meloney has IMO from time to time posted a credible and sensible comment, so she is not beyond redemption.

  • 5 votes
#1.18 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 11:21 PM EDT
Grisham

they aren't drug dealers! what is wrong with you? so the US border patrol just snipes the illegal immigrants? seriously?

They ILLEGALLY crossed a border. Just like a Mexican drug dealer or Immigrant might, except there were thousands of them. Do they snipe them? Of course not but they will shoot them if they think they have to to stop them from coming into their country illegally.

If you see armed soldiers and they tell you to stop advancing and you're armed with a rock, you turn around and go back or get shot. That simple. It's common sense really.

refugees trying to get back on their land get killed yeah semantics.

Illegally. Across a UN line. Give me a break.

well that is an outright lie, they were unarmed. what don't you understand about unarmed?

Visit my page and you will see a story about this topic. In it, you will see that these protesters have thrown rocks at police as well as Molotov Cocktails. The Israeli's would have to be the biggest fools on the face of the planet to allow thousands of illegal people to cross their border so that they could potentially cause injury to their citizens.

you are defending this atrocious action, saying it is ok to kill innocent people.

Incorrect. Try reading what I type.

They aren't innocent. If the Israeli's marched into Syria and started killing innocent civilians, then I'd agree with your absurd statement.

  • 8 votes
#1.19 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 12:45 AM EDT
infrared

They ILLEGALLY crossed a border. Just like a Mexican drug dealer or Immigrant might, except there were thousands of them. Do they snipe them? Of course not but they will shoot them if they think they have to to stop them from coming into their country illegally.

it is an inappropriate response. the us border patrol doesn't sit in towers and shoot the illegals trying to come through. they actually go and round them up.

they could have done other things, it is amazing how you will defend an absolutely extreme solution that ends up in the deaths of people.

Illegally. Across a UN line. Give me a break.

golan heights captured in 1967 by israel, UN passed Resolution 242 but it has been withdrawn so no UN approval.

also since when do israeli nationalists care what the UN says?

Visit my page and you will see a story about this topic. In it, you will see that these protesters have thrown rocks at police as well as Molotov Cocktails. The Israeli's would have to be the biggest fools on the face of the planet to allow thousands of illegal people to cross their border so that they could potentially cause injury to their citizens.

yeah right wing source that attacked the jews for not being nationalistic enough to disagree with obama.

They aren't innocent. If the Israeli's marched into Syria and started killing innocent civilians, then I'd agree with your absurd statement.

over the top responses is still considered slaughter. by using your logic hamas is perfectly correct in its response of shooting out rockets.

  • 4 votes
#1.20 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 1:38 AM EDT
Grisham

it is an inappropriate response. the us border patrol doesn't sit in towers and shoot the illegals trying to come through. they actually go and round them up.

they could have done other things, it is amazing how you will defend an absolutely extreme solution that ends up in the deaths of people.

If there were a thousand or more illegal people standing on the border of the US, you can be damn sure they wouldn't play nice. Again, it's common sense. The protesters knew what would happen and they chose to do it anyways.

yeah right wing source that attacked the jews for not being nationalistic enough to disagree with obama

Yeah...all the newspapers are telling lies. Those thousands of protesters were handing out pink bunnies and praying for the health of the Israeli's.

What nonsense.

over the top responses is still considered slaughter. by using your logic hamas is perfectly correct in its response of shooting out rockets.

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that my logic dictates rockets being fired into a soveriegn country.

It wasn't slaughter. Few were injured and they shot at their legs and feet. If the Israeli's really wanted to 'slaughter' them, none of the protesters would have returned to where they came from. And where they should have stayed in the first place.

  • 6 votes
#1.21 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 2:07 AM EDT
Meloney

aRTieA - my comment was directed at the quality of the sources and the objective evidence to support claims. Part of the reason I questioned reports you accept is because we have different standards for what makes a credible report. There are standards.

Yes, I am very skeptical of much of the information that comes out of that area. I am especially skeptical of claims made by opposition which attribute intent, motive or shadowy conspiracy to it's enemies. No, I do not accept unsupported stories from any sources. I do this to be fair and invite presentation of concrete evidence.

  • 4 votes
#1.22 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:49 AM EDT
infrared

If there were a thousand or more illegal people standing on the border of the US, you can be damn sure they wouldn't play nice. Again, it's common sense. The protesters knew what would happen and they chose to do it anyways.

so deadly force is perfectly acceptable means of unarmed crowd control? really? wow

Yeah...all the newspapers are telling lies. Those thousands of protesters were handing out pink bunnies and praying for the health of the Israeli's.

you posted one right wing newspaper as your source.

I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that my logic dictates rockets being fired into a soveriegn country.

israel has created a siege around one area while building settlements in another, that is a problem, using your logic it is perfectly ok to take extreme approaches to problems so in this case rocket fire would be an extreme but perfectly ok approach.

It wasn't slaughter. Few were injured and they shot at their legs and feet. If the Israeli's really wanted to 'slaughter' them, none of the protesters would have returned to where they came from. And where they should have stayed in the first place.

few were injured yeah ignore the fact that there were deaths.

oh so its not really slaughter unless you kill everyone? wow.

  • 3 votes
#1.23 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:48 AM EDT
aRTieA

Use of deadly force.....

I have been on military bases where there are signs --- "WARNING unauthorized entry beyond this point is subject to deadly force."

  • 7 votes
#1.24 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 5:31 PM EDT
infrared

you really ignoring the point here, they used the most violent way for crowd control. that's not civilized. your justification is just nonsensical.

  • 1 vote
#1.25 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:43 PM EDT
Grisham

you really ignoring the point here, they used the most violent way for crowd control. that's not civilized. your justification is just nonsensical.

No they didn't. They fired tear gas and shouted warnings over a bullhorn. The crowd rushed the fence anyways. Yes, if a crowd of people who want to harm your country and citizens rushes the border, ignoring tear gas and bull horns blaring to stay away, then the country has a right to defend its border using any means available. That goes for any country, including Israel.

so deadly force is perfectly acceptable means of unarmed crowd control? really? wow

Crowd control of their own citizens - no. This wasn't crowd control of their own citizens but potentially violent people from ANOTHER country. And again, they threw rocks at police and threw Molotov Cocktails before. They weren't unarmed, they just didn't have modern weapons and some were unarmed. All were acting illegally when they rushed the border of another country.

israel has created a siege around one area while building settlements in another, that is a problem, using your logic it is perfectly ok to take extreme approaches to problems so in this case rocket fire would be an extreme but perfectly ok approach.

No. I'm not even going to address this nonsensical post.

few were injured yeah ignore the fact that there were deaths.

oh so its not really slaughter unless you kill everyone? wow.

I didn't ignore anything. Sure there were deaths. Again, the protesters were responsible for their own stupidity. Guy with gun tells guy with rock to go home...you go home.

Slaughter is a big word. It's not a few deaths it's a lot of deaths.

  • 6 votes
#1.26 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:48 PM EDT
infrared

No they didn't. They fired tear gas and shouted warnings over a bullhorn. The crowd rushed the fence anyways. Yes, if a crowd of people who want to harm your country and citizens rushes the border, ignoring tear gas and bull horns blaring to stay away, then the country has a right to defend its border using any means available. That goes for any country, including Israel.

tear gas is a very powerful tool, it is literally impossible to be around it. defend? defend what unarmed refugees?

Crowd control of their own citizens - no. This wasn't crowd control of their own citizens but potentially violent people from ANOTHER country. And again, they threw rocks at police and threw Molotov Cocktails before. They weren't unarmed, they just didn't have modern weapons and some were unarmed. All were acting illegally when they rushed the border of another country.

uhh no crowd control refers to controlling a crowd. israel illegally took over land and forced those refugees out. some like virtually all.

No. I'm not even going to address this nonsensical post.

no its not. you say that violent actions towards a problem are acceptable hence rocket attack are acceptable in your logic.

I didn't ignore anything. Sure there were deaths. Again, the protesters were responsible for their own stupidity. Guy with gun tells guy with rock to go home...you go home.

Slaughter is a big word. It's not a few deaths it's a lot of deaths.

it doesn't matter people are people. i heard the same crap about operation cast lead.

again israel's action was to take up violence. civilized nations do not take up violence when unless they are last ditch efforts in this case there weren't.

  • 3 votes
#1.27 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 8:01 PM EDT
aRTieA

The Palestinians (who are probably Syrians by birth) commited suicide. So what's the problem?

They posed a threat, had weapons, and marched into minefields like lemmings.

You need to be more concerned with the people who intentionally sacrified them and placed no value on their lives.

  • 10 votes
#1.28 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 8:27 PM EDT
infrared

someone shooting you with a gun isn't suicide its murder.

unarmed refugees posing a threat...

amazing

i think you should pay attention to a murderous organization, IDF, who has a choice between tear gas and live bullets will go with the live bullets any day.

  • 3 votes
#1.29 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 9:34 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

someone shooting you with a gun isn't suicide its murder.

I guess you've never heard about "suicide by cop". This is a perfect example of it.

unarmed refugees posing a threat...

"unarmed"? bull@!$%#!!! Big sticks, rocks, probably molotov cocktails, knives, cleavers, wielded by hundreds running towards you and climbing or breaking down your fences, screaming hatred, would certainly pose a threat to me and if you say not to you then you're a liar. And suppose they were carrying nothing (which I do not believe), I still say that outnumbering hundreds running towards a person with obvious hatred of them would scare the @!$%# out of anyone.

i think you should pay attention to a murderous organization, IDF, who has a choice between tear gas and live bullets will go with the live bullets any day.

When the tear gas doesn't do the job, you do whatever you can to defend your country. So if YOU were invaded you would just lay down your arms and raise your arms I suppose.

israel illegally took over land and forced those refugees out. some like virtually all.

No. I'm not even going to address this nonsensical post.

I will. Israel was invaded by Syria and other surrounding nations. The invaders lost their war and Israel captured the Golan Heights. It is now Israel's land. Many of the original Syrian farmers remain on that land even if they do not accept the Israeli citizenship offered to them. Others were NOT forced out but left of their own accord. The recent demonstration consisted of people recruited by the Syrian Government and from what I read were paid to demonstrate, with larger sums paid if they were killed doing it (ovbiously the Syrian Government knew some would be killed and tempted these very poor people with their offer).

http://reformsyria.org/syrian-opposition/rps-statement-concerning-the-assad-stompers-of-the-golan-heights

If that source isn't good enough for you, there are dozens more - just use google.

  • 9 votes
#1.30 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:24 PM EDT
Grisham

Great post, Buzz. You saved me from having to respond again to someone who can't see common sense. It seems to me that he is willing to blame Israel no matter what they do. No country is going to allow thousands of illegal protesters into their country where they could do harm to the civilians within. I don't agree with everything Israel does, but in this case they did exactly what they're supposed to do - defend their border.

  • 7 votes
#1.31 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 12:36 AM EDT
Meloney

uh huh - people who don't see it your way don't have common sense or are irrational (CoH please). Snark? Burnishing your political credentials? It's not like infrared hasn't shown a grasp the events or an understanding of your position.

  • 2 votes
#1.32 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 8:01 AM EDT
Grisham

people who don't see it your way don't have common sense or are irrational (CoH please).

It's not 'my' way. It's the way of every soverign country on the face of the planet.

Burnishing your political credentials?

I don't remember doing that.

  • 6 votes
#1.33 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 9:05 AM EDT
aRTieA

CoH please

I would expect that unnecessary reminder only if I was posting inflammatory information or downright lies. Then I would think someone would react emotionally and violate the COH. NICE TRY AT A SETUP!

  • 8 votes
#1.34 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 10:22 AM EDT
Meloney

It's not 'my' way. It's the way of every soverign country on the face of the planet.

If this was so then there would not be a peep about Israel's use of force in this event. Clearly that is not the case. All of Israel's neighbors and authorities from various countries and organizations denounced the excessive use of force Israel used at Syria's border and/or urged Israel to restrain it's military (as the US did). It is not business as usual for every other country.

Burnishing your political credentials?

I'm asking if that is why you would choose such a dogmatic position and personally disparge opposition.

  • 3 votes
#1.35 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 10:48 AM EDT
aRTieA

If this was so then there would not be a peep about Israel's use of force in this event.

Its called selective bias based on anti-semitism, Jew-hatred or whatever you want to call it. I could list hundreds of cases with other countries that did not raise a peep. How about Egypt killing people trying to cross the border into Israel (and they weren't event armed unlike the Palestinians at the Syrian border).

Egyptian guards kill African at border with Israel

Oh did you hear about those killed in a anti-tank land mime explosion withing Syrian territory? Hardly a peep......

Since all politics are local, how would you react to a house invasion?

  • 5 votes
#1.36 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 11:06 AM EDT
Meloney

I thought I'd take this opportunity to get to know Grisham a bit better aRTieA - thanks for your help.

  • 2 votes
#1.37 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 11:21 AM EDT
infrared

I guess you've never heard about "suicide by cop". This is a perfect example of it.

and you have this incredible deep psychological insight how?

"unarmed"? bull@!$%#!!! Big sticks, rocks

a stick, your justification of shooting people dead is if they brandish a stick?

ever seen riot police how they conduct themselves? they have everything thrown at them, not just rocks but anything that isn't screwed down and even things have formerly have been screwed down into the concrete yet they don't shoot people.

When the tear gas doesn't do the job, you do whatever you can to defend your country. So if YOU were invaded you would just lay down your arms and raise your arms I suppose.

tear gas always does the job

The invaders lost their war and Israel captured the Golan Heights

so in other words, feel free to start wars over land? that's pretty civilized.

The recent demonstration consisted of people recruited by the Syrian Government and from what I read were paid to demonstrate

your proof is what? meloney already touched upon the lack of credible sources, if you choose to believe that fine but you have no credible sources.

as far as your source goes, i wouldn't really trust AIPAC as an unbiased source.

and i don't really feel like trying to find evidence for your statements.

  • 1 vote
#1.38 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 12:13 PM EDT
aRTieA

But you have no sources. How about Syria releasing the full video of the event? Unless of course they don't want it shown until they edit it properly....

  • 5 votes
#1.39 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 12:35 PM EDT
infrared

i need a source to say that killing people who brandish a stick is wrong?

  • 1 vote
#1.40 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 1:02 PM EDT
aRTieA

But you would be relying on sources that you say are unreliable. You appear to want to have it both ways.

  • 6 votes
#1.41 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 1:07 PM EDT
infrared

buzz's source was AIPAC, a israeli lobbying group, pretty biased source there. also you are making an assumption i would use AIPAC as a source?

  • 1 vote
#1.42 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 1:48 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

I have to laugh at the fact that infrared ignored all the other lethal weapons I mentioned and focused entirely on the word "sticks". Desperation personified. I wanted to say baseball bats, which could easily be lethal, but I figured they wouldn't have those, so I thought of a stick that was heavy and strong like baseball bats. Okay infrared? Now your comments are nothing but a joke.

  • 7 votes
#1.43 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:14 PM EDT
infrared

reported the personal attack.

also i already pointed, riot police deal with a lot more violence and they don't fire live ammunition killing people. you absolutely ignored that.

  • 2 votes
#1.44 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:16 PM EDT
infrared

bottom line is that israel had a situation, they needed to control the crowd, they had a choice between deadly and non-deadly use of force, they chose deadly they got flack.

  • 1 vote
#1.45 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:35 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Your false accusation of a personal attack is a personal attack. What did I say that was not a comment about your comments? Did I call you an anti-Semite? Did I call you a goat-@!$%#er? Did I call you a douche? Did I call you a @!$%#ing lying bastard? I did not. I'll accept your apology when you give it.

  • 9 votes
#1.46 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 2:42 PM EDT
infrared

it is a personal attack.

  • 4 votes
#1.47 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 3:35 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

A disagreement with your opinion is in your opinion a personal attack. So go ahead and report me. If I am suspended for whatever I said I will apologize to YOU. I'M a gentleman. But if YOU'RE wrong, I will expect an apology from a gentleman.

  • 7 votes
#1.48 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 7:26 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

#1.45 ,

bottom line is that israel had a situation, they needed to control the crowd, they had a choice between deadly and non-deadly use of force, they chose deadly they got flack.

You seem to have left out an important fact from your "bottom line" .
This was not policemen trying to control a riot . This was a cross border skirmish between Syrian aliens and the Israeli army . The standards for crowd control for within border crowds of citizens do not apply . To expect them to apply is quite frankly stupid or dishonest .

  • 8 votes
#1.49 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:32 AM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Gee whiz, I haven't been suspended. So infrared, where's the apology? Figures you would disappear rather than do the gentlemanly thing.

  • 5 votes
#1.50 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:06 AM EDT
infrared

This was not policemen trying to control a riot . This was a cross border skirmish between Syrian aliens and the Israeli army . The standards for crowd control for within border crowds of citizens do not apply . To expect them to apply is quite frankly stupid or dishonest .

1) trying to strike some difference difference between IDF and police, there is really none, both organizations always have to show restraint. It is absolutely mind boggling as to why you would even try to make any point using "well they aren't the police" the IDF aren't supposed to be murderous barbarians as well.

2) there was no skirmish, it would imply actual fighting, what there was one side with guns not both sides.

3) Indiscriminate killing is not ok.

Gee whiz, I haven't been suspended. So infrared, where's the apology? Figures you would disappear rather than do the gentlemanly thing.

its the weekend?

  • 2 votes
#1.51 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:32 AM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

How is it, infrared, that you know so much of exactly what happened there? Were you there? Did you see exactly the situation? Were you aware of every provocation?

Yes, you're right about the weekend, although I have seen Tyler recently suspend a person on a Sunday. The fact is that it was Thursday when you said you reported me, but I concede that NV staff is pretty busy. So how long must we wait to see if I will be suspended?

  • 7 votes
#1.52 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:54 AM EDT
infrared

i read the news, and every news outlet pretty much outlines very one thing, these people were basically unarmed, a fence separated them from israel, these were also refugees not aliens.

if your response is a violent one to a group of individuals that have nothing but sticks and rocks then you will always catch flack. especially if you hold israel as some superior nation, cause that being a response is not civilized.

  • 1 vote
#1.53 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:02 AM EDT
IDFeb89

infrared,

Do you have a confirmed number of deaths from IDF live fire? you might be surprised when these numbers do come out..I suspect it'll take time, though. Jenin massacre springs to mind.

  • 5 votes
#1.54 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:06 AM EDT
infrared

no final concrete but reports hover around 14.

  • 2 votes
#1.55 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:11 AM EDT
IDFeb89

infrared,

reports hover around 14.

Exactly. a long way from confirmed now, isnt it? also, I asked for a confirmed number of deaths from IDF live fire. when it's all said and done, that number will be separate from the total number of deaths.

  • 7 votes
#1.56 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:20 AM EDT
infrared

so you think people just fell down and died randomly?

  • 2 votes
#1.57 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:34 AM EDT
IDFeb89

I think there are a lot of fairly-tales running around, that much is for sure. I'll give you a hint - the total number of deaths from IDF fire is much, much lower than the ones being discussed. so much so that no one is even making an effort to confirm them...why ruin such a lovely Israel bashing party with a few facts, right?

  • 8 votes
#1.58 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:47 AM EDT
infrared

apparently 14 has been confirmed by the hospital treating the injured, israel wasn't keeping track:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/06/05/general-ml-israel-palestinians_8500914.html

yet i suspect this confirmation is going to be said "not good enough"

  • 2 votes
#1.59 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:01 PM EDT
IDFeb89

infrared,

The casualty figures came from Syrian state television and were confirmed by the head of a hospital treating the casualties.

Wow, and they were confirmed by the head of the hospital..

Is that the same state television assuring everyone (that's willing to listen) that Assad isn't butchering his own citizens in the streets? you bet it's not good enough. and you should know better.

  • 8 votes
#1.60 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:08 PM EDT
infrared

were confirmed by the head of a hospital treating the casualties.

i already figured it was going to be said it wasn't good enough. i was pointing to state television, i was pointing to the hospital.

  • 2 votes
#1.61 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:11 PM EDT
IDFeb89

by the head of a hospital treating

of course he confirmed it. a headless head of an hospital would be completely useless...

  • 8 votes
#1.62 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:16 PM EDT
infrared

so basically all reports are not good enough for you yet without anything whatsoever you declare that the death toll is substantially less if it exists at all and you treat it as a fact.

  • 3 votes
#1.63 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:26 PM EDT
IDFeb89

infrared,

you declare that the death toll is substantially less

No, I said that the death toll from IDF fire is substantially less than what's been written in those so called reports.

if it exists at all

never said there were no deaths. also, didn't say IDF fire wasn't responsible for any of them.

  • 6 votes
#1.64 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:34 PM EDT
infrared

No, I said that the death toll from IDF fire is substantially less than what's been written in those so called reports.

no difference in what i wrote. exactly, you have no evidence to support what you have, you wind up some conspiracy theory if the reports go against your desired reality.

  • 3 votes
#1.65 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:39 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Ever since the Jenin "massacre" debunking (as mentioned above) one with any common sense simply does not rely on the word of Israel's opponents, unless, of course, their wish is to swallow and spit out from time to time the usual Israel-bashing propaganda bull@!$%#.

  • 5 votes
#1.66 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:45 PM EDT
IDFeb89

so basically all reports are not good enough

Unfortunately, as things stand right now - Pretty much, yes. fact is, to date, there are absolutely zero reliable reports and/or sources to choose from in order to confirm exactly how many people died as a result of IDF fire. so, I guess hovering between 14 to 23 would do for now for the anti-Israel brigade. accurate numbers will come out at some point, they always do.

  • 5 votes
#1.67 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:45 PM EDT
infrared

Unfortunately, as things stand right now - Pretty much, yes. fact is, to date, there are absolutely zero reliable reports and/or sources to choose from in order to confirm exactly how many people died as a result of IDF fire. so, I guess hovering between 14 to 23 would do for now for the anti-Israel brigade. accurate numbers will come out at some point, they always do.

sorry but you aren't pro-israel you are a nationalist, it is to the point that you will only have one possible outcome set in your mind and everything be dammed if it doesn't conform to actual reality. basically this is the only outcome that is possible, if anything doesn't support your reality there is a conspiracy theory.

  • 3 votes
#1.68 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:02 PM EDT
IDFeb89

infrared,

sorry but you aren't pro-israel you are a nationalist, it is to the point that you will only have one possible outcome set in your mind and everything be dammed if it doesn't conform to actual reality.

Not at all. more than me, I think you've just described yourself. I've posted plenty of negative comments regarding the current Israeli government, behaviour of settlers, etc. on the other hand, I doubt you ever successfully brought yourself to say anything positive about Israel. not even one thing, probably. such are the ways of the Israel is never right crowds.

  • 7 votes
#1.69 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
infrared

you are disputing reports that 14 people are dead, pretty much every major news outlet and minor news outlets have picked this story up and report 14. this includes the western media which meets regularly with israeli lobby groups, so if it was so highly untrue i really doubt that american news outlets would report this figure.

  • 1 vote
#1.70 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:09 PM EDT
IDFeb89

infrared,

you are disputing reports that 14 people are dead

No.

again, as stated - I'm disputing reports that 14 people are dead as a result of IDF fire.

  • 6 votes
#1.71 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:26 PM EDT
aRTieA

Is there any source (other then that cited in #1.59)as to how many injured/killed by Syrian mines?

The Israeli army said protesters had hurled firebombs at defense force troops, setting fires and leading to the explosion of four landmines on the Syrian side of the border.

  • 6 votes
#1.72 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

#1.51 ,

1) trying to strike some difference difference between IDF and police, there is really none, both organizations always have to show restraint. It is absolutely mind boggling as to why you would even try to make any point using "well they aren't the police" the IDF aren't supposed to be murderous barbarians as well.

That is the most meaningless crap I've seen in a long time posing as an argument . In the US , for comparison , the army is not utilized to quell riots . The police and national guard are called instead . If there was a riot within Israel I expect they would call someone other than the IDF because that is not their function . Their function is to protect the border and to fight wars of foreign aggression .

As to the description of being murderrous barbarians , it is clear inaccurate . They have the fire power to kill all such skirmishers . But instead they only shot to wound and only after warnings with bullhorns were given . Then there are the Syrian landmines .

  • 8 votes
#1.73 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:37 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

That is the most meaningless crap I've seen in a long time posing as an argument . In the US , for comparison , the army is not utilized to quell riots . The police and national guard are called instead.

And then let's not forget Kent State. If you're going to threaten and provoke, @!$%# happens, even if it's a peaceful demonstration.

The topic of this article is implicit in the sarcasm of its title. Why is the focus entirely on Israel? Perhaps it does help to establish the real motivation of the persons attempting to hijack the discussion to bash Israel, rather than discuss the actual topic.

  • 6 votes
#1.74 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:10 PM EDT
infrared

again, as stated - I'm disputing reports that 14 people are dead as a result of IDF fire.

you have no reason to other than it doesn't fit your preferred reality.

That is the most meaningless crap I've seen in a long time posing as an argument . In the US , for comparison , the army is not utilized to quell riots . The police and national guard are called instead . If there was a riot within Israel I expect they would call someone other than the IDF because that is not their function . Their function is to protect the border and to fight wars of foreign aggression .

the army is not utilized but the army is utilized. i don't get your logic here.

you say the army isn't utilized but the national guard which is a branch of the army is utilized.

before you declare a post "meaningless crap" you should check your own post first.

refugees aren't foreigners sorry.

As to the description of being murderrous barbarians , it is clear inaccurate . They have the fire power to kill all such skirmishers . But instead they only shot to wound and only after warnings with bullhorns were given . Then there are the Syrian landmines .

applying a deadly technique instead of nonviolent is murderous and blood thirsty. it wasn't a skirmish, please look up the word.

And then let's not forget Kent State. If you're going to threaten and provoke, @!$%# happens, even if it's a peaceful demonstration.

and your point is what? they caught flack for what they done and substantial flack, no one in their right minds is defending what they done, here it is a different story.

Why is the focus entirely on Israel?

because if you hold israel on such a high pedistool you will get criticism.

  • 1 vote
#1.75 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:08 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Israel is not on a high pedestal. Maybe you are putting it there so that you can criticize it. Israel reacts no differently than any other civilized country would in order to defend its borders, if the borders were being massively stormed by anyone. There are lots of photos showing the perpetrators.

I repeat, for those whose whole intention on NewsVine is to bash Israel, that the topic is Bashir causing a deflection of attention away from his own slaughter of his citizens demonstrating against his government, or did you miss the sarcasm of the title to this article? It has become a favourite tactic to "blame Israel".

  • 6 votes
#1.76 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:27 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

#1.75 ,

you say the army isn't utilized but the national guard which is a branch of the army is utilized.

Uh no . The national guard is a state level organization . The army is at the national level . Are you really that ignorant or were you just too eager to find fault with what I said ?

  • 4 votes
#1.77 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:58 PM EDT
infrared

Maybe you are putting it there so that you can criticize it. Israel reacts no differently than any other civilized country would in order to defend its borders

if that was the case the us would just setup sniper towers and kill all illegal immigrants crossing the border, in this case i don't see any news story about bodies in the desert from sniper shots.

if israel is going to react to people with stick and rocks on the other side of the fence by killing them then they are not civilized.

ironically you say you don't put israel on a pedistool that it isn't worthy of having and you follow that by statements that do put it up there.

bash Israel

im not bashing israel, i am criticizing on how they handled this situation. in fact there were protests that they managed to disperse without deadly force and just used tear gas, i read this morning so clearly they are fully capable.

Uh no . The national guard is a state level organization . The army is at the national level . Are you really that ignorant or were you just too eager to find fault with what I said ?

so the NATIONAL guard is not NATIONAL? really?

 The Army National Guard of each State, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia, Guam, and the Virgin Islands includes such members of the staff corps corresponding to the staff corps of the Army as the Secretary of the Army may authorize.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc32.wais&start=29397&SIZE=2151&TYPE=TEXT
  • 1 vote
#1.78 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:18 AM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

Each state has it's own guard unit . They are under the authority of the Governor of that state and not the U.S. Army . It is actually illegal to call out the U.S. army to quell civilian riots in the U.S.
But it is legal to call out the state guard units .

  • 6 votes
#1.79 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:41 AM EDT
infrared

national guard is part of the army.

  • 2 votes
#1.80 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:43 AM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

Are you saying that they are identical to the regular army ?

  • 5 votes
#1.81 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:29 AM EDT
infrared

i am saying they are part of the army

  • 1 vote
#1.82 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:37 AM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

OK , they are part of the army . That doesn't change what I said in #1.79 .
And I'll repeat the important parts here :
It is actually illegal to call out the U.S. army to quell civilian riots in the U.S. But it is legal to call out the state guard units .

  • 5 votes
#1.83 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:37 PM EDT
infrared

so if in your mind IDF are a bunch of murderous goons who are incapable of using non-deadly techniques to quell protestors then israel deserves flack for that.

but that would be contradictory because after this protest IDF dispersed another protest at/around a holy site without use of deadly force, so they are capable.

  • 1 vote
#1.84 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:58 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

so if in your mind IDF are a bunch of murderous goons who are incapable of using non-deadly techniques to quell protestors then israel deserves flack for that.

What contorted thinking processes you have . Do you have insomnia problems by any chance ?
The weapons that the IDF have are not designed for crowd control . They are designed for military combat against an enemy who is in a kill-or-be-killed mindset .

If they are deployed within country for crowd control [which would surprised me]
then I expect they are supplied with completely different weapons and tactics .

  • 5 votes
#1.85 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:20 PM EDT
IDFeb89

after this protest IDF dispersed another protest at/around a holy site

That was the Police, not the IDF.

  • 5 votes
#1.86 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:24 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

Thanks for the info IDF .

  • 5 votes
#1.87 - Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:18 PM EDT
infrared

That was the Police, not the IDF.

correct the border police:

http://www.newser.com/article/d9np28b81/israeli-police-palestinian-protesters-clash-at-sensitive-jerusalem-holy-site.html

so basically having the border police, israel chose to send out IDF nonetheless.

  • 1 vote
#1.88 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:38 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

picky picky picky

  • 6 votes
#1.89 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:45 PM EDT
infrared

picky picky picky

that's your response?

  • 1 vote
#1.90 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:01 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

That is my standard response to anyone who just likes to pick arguments .

  • 6 votes
#1.91 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:35 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

I would have used "picky, picky, picky" to identify a person who only picks on Israel, who always picks on Israel, who especially relishes picking on Israel. I can't help but think about this part of the definition of anti-Semitism quoted by the U.S. Department of State, with the exact same wording as in the Ottawa Protocol:

"Applying double standards by requiring of [Israel] a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/102406.htm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inside-politics-blog/2010/11/for-the-record-the-full-text-of-the-ottawa-protocol.html

  • 5 votes
#1.92 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:14 AM EDT
infrared

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

yeah unfortunately there is no double standard here from me. i don't go around and say what syria did with its protesters was "defense" or "civilized" yet you defend israel's actions by calling it "defense" and "civilized" while simultaniously saying what syria did was wrong.

  • 3 votes
#1.93 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:19 AM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

So if Israel lined up a bunch of people on the border with Syria and
had them charge over the no-man's land to try to take it over you would
expect that Assad should just let them come ?

  • 6 votes
#1.94 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:57 AM EDT
aRTieA

NSZ

You are not really trying to pose a logical argument knowing that an illogical response is forthcoming?

  • 4 votes
#1.95 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:16 AM EDT
infrared

So if Israel lined up a bunch of people on the border with Syria and
had them charge over the no-man's land to try to take it over you would
expect that Assad should just let them come ?

what's with the what if questions.

i pretty much laid it out for you, in #1.93

  • 3 votes
#1.96 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:45 AM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Don't ask me. I'm still dizzy from the spin in #1.93. That statement makes me think of a cat chasing its tail. What it comes down to is that he simply cannot respond to a reversed situation, and that's what makes it a double standard.

Or maybe one should expect in that situation that Assad himself would be at the border with a brass band and a welcoming party, ready to shower the invaders with gifts and a ticker tape parade.

  • 6 votes
#1.97 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:39 PM EDT
infrared

please point out where i said that what syria done with its protestors was perfectly ok, please find this quote of me.

  • 1 vote
#1.98 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:16 PM EDT
HydeWhyte

infrared (cool technology btw)

Are you here to protest Syria or to protest Israel? Since you are here to protest Israel, it does not really matter whether you said this or that about Syria. Other commentators seem to be implying that you can be overly picky in your expectations of Israel while being less picky in regard to Syria. I tend to agree and I think you will to if you are really honest about it. I admit that I am the same way about Israel and the Palestinians, except that I am on the 'pro-Israel' side even though I can be rather critical of certain Israeli practices myself.

In my opinion there is no equivalence between Israel defending her borders and the Syrian crackdown on its own civilian population. Israel standing guard on its border pales in comparison to the murders and injuries being dealt to the Syrian people at the hands of its current dictator; no press allowed of course.

  • 7 votes
#1.99 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:29 PM EDT
infrared

In my opinion there is no equivalence between Israel defending her borders and the Syrian crackdown on its own civilian population. Israel standing guard on its border pales in comparison to the murders and injuries being dealt to the Syrian people at the hands of its current dictator; no press allowed of course.

everything that israel does is defense, even if it is really just stretching that term out. saying everything that israel does is defense while what other nations do isn't defense is a double standard.

it wasn't defense, the people weren't a realistic threat, all they had was rocks and sticks, they are bombs or guns here, israel has the ability to control crowds through non-violent methods and they chose not to. their response is what is not acceptable. these were protesters unhappy with the government just like in syria. both syria and israel attacked the protesters.

nationalists always say that everything israel does is defense, i highly doubt someone will admit to israel being murderous but saying it is alright too.

  • 3 votes
#1.100 - Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:06 AM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

You know what? infrared does deserve one compliment. He sure as hell is tenacious. He can keep repeating the same thing over and over again notwithstanding the fact that it's been refuted over and over again. Yes, I said "sticks" (in fact I said "big sticks") because at the time I didn't think of the word "clubs", but notice that infrared "forgot" that I also said "knives, cleavers and molotov cocktails", besides the fact that you can KILL with a rock (I understand it is a favourite way for some people to punish women who have been accused of having committed adultery).

By the way, infrared, where's the apology? The weekend is long over and I'm still here notwithstanding your reporting me.

  • 6 votes
#1.101 - Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:46 AM EDT
HydeWhyte

everything that israel does is defense, even if it is really just stretching that term out. saying everything that israel does is defense while what other nations do isn't defense is a double standard.

it wasn't defense, the people weren't a realistic threat, all they had was rocks and sticks, they are bombs or guns here, israel has the ability to control crowds through non-violent methods and they chose not to. their response is what is not acceptable. these were protesters unhappy with the government just like in syria. both syria and israel attacked the protesters.

It is not a double standard; what happened along the border is defense of the border and is appropriate for the situation. If the border threat increases from molotov cocktails and 'sticks' to rifles and mortars, Israel's response will again be appropriate. I still remember your claim that the US would not use deadly force in a similar situation and I still think you are deadly wrong about that. Like Israel, we use force that is appropriate to the situation.

nationalists always say that everything israel does is defense, i highly doubt someone will admit to israel being murderous but saying it is alright too.

That may be mostly true but it seems to be less true on the pro-Israel side. From the other side of the glass everything the Palestinians do is justified.

  • 4 votes
#1.102 - Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:01 AM EDT
infrared

the fact that it's been refuted over and over again

you didn't refute anything, all you say it was "defense" as if defense can be anything no matter how grossly violent and inappropriate the reaction is.

"sticks" (in fact I said "big sticks") because at the time I didn't think of the word "clubs"

who cares? you can call them anything you want doesn't matter, they weren't a threat to those soldiers behind a fence, behind wall on infrastructure.

"forgot" that I also said "knives, cleavers and molotov cocktails"

no i didn't forget i just ignored it cause it was ridiculous, there was only one report of molotov and came from the IDF, not one of the witnesses confirmed that. they confirmed rocks and sticks and trash being thrown.

besides the fact that you can KILL with a rock

yeah you can but you need to be right there by them to do so, the logistics in this case would make doing that impossible. just because someone poses a threat to you doesn't mean your response can be as violent as you wish it to be.

By the way, infrared, where's the apology? The weekend is long over and I'm still here notwithstanding your reporting me.

not apologizing for anything.

It is not a double standard

yes it is

what happened along the border is defense of the border

anything that is done by security forces is defense, the protesters in syria did the same as they did at the border yet what israel done was defense? why hasn't what syria done defense?

is appropriate for the situation

no, witnesses described it as shooting fish in a bucket. you may have someone with a rock but considering you are behind a trench, barbed wire and a wall it gives you considerable amount of time to react in a non lethal method to disperse that person, in this case a crowd.

If the border threat increases from molotov cocktails

there were no molotov cocktails there were sticks, rocks and trash. and even in the case their are, it is called tear gas. there were also no guns or mortars. seriously wtf is with making this garbage up?

US would not use deadly force in a similar situation and I still think you are deadly wrong about that.

the us doesn't use snipers as a border defense strategy. they take a more humane approach of rounding them up.

Like Israel, we use force that is appropriate to the situation.

there was no immediate/urgent threat, they had to go through several defenses before they could have gotten to anyone.

That may be mostly true but it seems to be less true on the pro-Israel side. From the other side of the glass everything the Palestinians do is justified.

no there is no criticism at all, you absolutely find nothing wrong with people getting killed who in order to have posed a realistic immediate threat would have had to get through several defensive barricades with nonlethal methods available. it is the equivalent of opening a walnut with a sledge hammer.

the soldiers had the means and time to take nonlethal action, they chose against that. syria could have done the same, they chose against that. you find what israel done right and what syria done wrong even though both were in the name of nation's security. that is a double standard.

it is a pretty clear point to get, same situations, both sides could use nonlethal methods, did not yet one is a tyrant and the other is a victim.

  • 3 votes
#1.103 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:11 AM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

anything that is done by security forces is defense, the protesters in syria did the same as they did at the border yet what israel done was defense? why hasn't what syria done defense?

I think you have a point . The Syrian government did defend itself against its own citizens . The Israelis defended themselves against foreign citizens . Western people generally look down on governments which do what Syria did . Why do you think that is ??

the us doesn't use snipers as a border defense strategy. they take a more humane approach of rounding them up.

OK , now you're really being purposely obtuse . At the US/Mexican border we don't have crowds massing and demonstrating . They sneak over a few at a time at night .

  • 6 votes
#1.104 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:37 AM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

not apologizing for anything.

And I'm not continuing a dialogue with a person like you. You can go @!$%# yourself, and now you can report me for that. Go talk to the terrorists you support, they'll love what you have to say. Over and out, and inftrared now on ignore. Not interested in any of the propaganda bull@!$%# he continues to rant.

  • 6 votes
#1.105 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:34 AM EDT
HydeWhyte

Buzz, how's the weather behind that great wall over there? Any equivalence between Israeli self defense and the Chinese crackdown on Christians trying to worship freely and peacefully? But then again, perhaps that is a subject best left alone in certain circles. Yes, definately best. Wouldn't want Newsvine going the way of Youtube and Google, now would we?

  • 5 votes
#1.106 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:35 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Nail - head. Not just NV, but me too.

  • 6 votes
#1.107 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:58 PM EDT
HydeWhyte

Well, hopefully not just because someone else mentioned it but I'll henceforth leave it alone in your presence nonetheless.

  • 4 votes
#1.108 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
aRTieA

The focus should be on the single event. It always brings back what someone I knew would always do when (as a teenager) got caught doing something wrong. He would bring up something his brother did in the past as though it excused his current behavior.

  • 5 votes
#1.109 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:18 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

In the George Cloony remake of Ocean's 11, Julia Roberts says to the beau she is leaving "You never know who's watching."

  • 6 votes
#1.110 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:22 PM EDT
HydeWhyte

That was a remake? Didn't know that. Please excuse my American foolishness for not remembering the wisdom even Hollywood sometimes has the rare insight to share.

  • 4 votes
#1.111 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:27 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

The original starred Frank Sinatra and his "rat pack". Sometimes life imitates art, and sometimes art imitates life.

  • 5 votes
#1.112 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:38 PM EDT
HydeWhyte

Not much of an old movie buff myself but I enjoyed Oceans 11 & Clooney. Another of his I really like is O' Brother Where Art Thou. One of my fav parts is when the little KKK politician interrupts Clooney's band shouting "Is you is, or is you ain't, my constituency!"

I have to say I am definately not in their constituency:) and would rather just listen to the song Clooney and his band were lip-syncing so well.

  • 4 votes
#1.113 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:57 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

"I'm a Man of Constant Sorrow" I enjoyed "Oh Brother..." as well - love old time music.

  • 5 votes
#1.114 - Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:45 PM EDT
Reply
Grisham

I agree with the article. Good seed. Any country is allowed (actually it's their job) to defend their borders. The protesters were told several times that there would be consequences to their actions and they CHOSE to rush the fence anyways. I've heard the argument several times that the Israeli's could have used less violent means to defend their border, such as tear gas or rubber bullets. Sure, they could have. But it's cause and effect. If the protesters hadn't decided to rush the fence, it would have been a moot point.

  • 14 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:40 AM EDT
aRTieA

I have seen unconfirmed reports that many were killed by land mines. I don't know if it was on the Syrian side or Israeli side.

In any event, they were warned that deadly force would be used. They made a conscious decision to become martyrs for no other reason then to divert attention away from Assad.

I believe that later on Palestinians in camps in Damascus rioted aginst the PFLP headquarters. They realized that they had been used and their sons sacrified.

http://artiea.newsvine.com/_news/2011/06/07/6804358-violence-breaks-out-in-refugee-camp-in-syria-14-killed

  • 6 votes
#2.1 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:34 PM EDT
IDFeb89

aRTieA,

I don't know if it was on the Syrian side or Israeli side.

Syrian.

  • 5 votes
#2.2 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 6:08 PM EDT
Decurion_505

Does anyone think it's the least bit odd that while tthe Syrian gov't is engaged in brutally putting down dissidents among its own populace that a bunch of ordinary Syrian citizens would suddenly rush to the Golan to "protest Israel"? Can you say "put-up-job"?

  • 9 votes
#2.3 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 2:23 AM EDT
Reply
jackzg-

but here it all is saying two wrongs make a right.

Your sentence is missing some words, but anyway I think the point of the article has gone over your head. No one is saying any of this is right. Are we all agreed it's not right to kill others? Good.

Now, how come there is more public criticism of Israel killing 14 people than there is of Syria killing 35, when it all happened on the same weekend in adjacent countries?

  • 7 votes
Reply#3 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:29 AM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Syria has killed only 35? Let's bring the figure up to date. See my comment below, #5. 1,100 would be more like it. Now will we see the Israel bashers use the words "equivalence" or "disproportionate" (applied to the actions of Israel)?

  • 7 votes
#3.1 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 11:26 PM EDT
Meloney

apparently you missed the time frame - "of Syria killing 35, when it all happened on the same weekend"

  • 3 votes
#3.2 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 6:58 AM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Oh, I see. That makes a huge difference. So how many Syrian protesters did the Israelis kill in the same time frame that the Syrian authorities killed 1,100 of their own people? How about the 10,000 that Syria arrested (and from what I've read not many of them will be released with all their body parts intact). After all, I want my comment to be fair. As I saw above you would only rely on CREDIBLE sources, right?

  • 8 votes
#3.3 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 7:08 AM EDT
infrared

israel killed over a thousand in operation cast lead but that was ok and those were civilians. where was your outrage then? we are talking about a specific event that occurred not what is happening in syria, if you wish to speak about syria go seed an article about it.

your point of hey before you criticize israel you must bring up north korea, china, darfur etc is pretty ridiculous.

funny though, while looking around at all other nations and saying "well they do it too" you somehow elevate israel into some higher standard at the same time. pretty ridiculous. you can say "look other countries do it too" but you cannot turn around and call israel civilized and if you do call israel civilized you cannot turn around and say "look other countries do it too"

  • 2 votes
#3.4 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 2:53 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

Nice try, infrared, but I stand on what I said. No matter how much you attempt to deflect and defuse, anybody who doesn't have a vicious hard-on for Israel like you do can think for themself. Besides, I wasn't addressing you. You make what you are very obvious to everyone.

  • 8 votes
#3.5 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:12 PM EDT
infrared

i point out your own hypocrisy, you have a problem with syria but don't have a problem with israel.

i point out your inconsistencies, you say israel is a civilized nation but then you justify israel's actions cause some uncivilized nation did it.

  • 2 votes
#3.6 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
aRTieA

If someone breaks into my house without permission and I demands that they stop and they don't making me feel threatened, I assure you that they will be leaving on a stretcher.

I have a right to use deadly force to protect my property and person.

  • 7 votes
#3.7 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 5:35 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

But aRTieA, infrared doesn't believe you should do that. If he were invaded by a group storming his house, perhaps he would say "When you're finished raping my wife I have two young daughters for you upstairs, and there is a cleaver in the kitchen that you can use to behead me." His comments stink with hypocracy; the only thing he has proven is that he should be put on "ignore".

  • 7 votes
#3.8 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 11:34 PM EDT
aRTieA

It also indicates a total ignorance of common law. And violating a sovereign border (i.e., invasion) is way beyond the defenses allowed by common law/

http://www.defending.com/home-invasion

Defenses
In connection with home invasion, occupants should be aware that state laws vary on the extent of self defense that is permissible in the face of home intruders. Under common law, the Castle Doctrine generally allows a person to stay in his home and defend himself if an intruder has unlawfully or forcibly entered the home, so long as the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon an occupant of the home. Variations of the Castle Doctrine run throughout many states, and some conditions (i.e. the occupant must not have provoked the use of force) may attach.

On the contrary, some states follow the Duty to Retreat doctrine, which requires the occupants to retreat from the dwelling and verbally announce any intent to use deadly force, before they can be legally justified the use of force through self defense.

“Stand-your-ground” laws, which similar to the Castle Doctrine allow an occupant to stay in the home and defend himself without an announcement of the use of force, are being codified in many states.

  • 6 votes
#3.9 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 10:27 AM EDT
Reply
P. Thomas

 Omri Ceren ridicules Syria's commemoration of "Naska Day" when, during the 1973 Middle East war, Syrian armed forces came close to taking back their territory, the Golan Heights, which Israel took from them when it attacked its neighbors in 1967.  It's something like Australians and New Zealanders commemorating Anzac Day, their most sacred national holiday, in remembrance of the Australian and New Zealand troops who suffered heavy losses in the failed Gallipoli campaign against the Ottoman Turks during World War I.

Ceren then falsely boasts that the Golan Heights apparently are now part of Israel, claiming that they are the "Syrian-Israeli border."  I wasn't aware that the Golan is now part if Israel.  Actually, Palestinians and Syrian citizens who had been ethnically-cleansed by Israel tried to return to their homes and communities by crossing the border between Syria and the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, and were shot to death by Israeli troops.

Ceren then attempts to perpetuate Zionist border fiction by whining, "...partisans with press cards [are] lined up to condemn Israelis for defending their borders.  To repeat, the 'border' between Syria and the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights is not Israel's border.  Omri Ceren wants us to conveniently forget that since its founding in 1948, Israel has never defined its own borders.  To this day we don't know what "Israel" is, that US taxpayers subsidize and weaponize more generously than any other nation on earth.  In fact, in the absence of peace all these decades, "Israel" keeps getting bigger and bigger, which of course is the Zionist objective. 

Ceren then predictably finger-points at the Arabs and their current turmoil: "Assad has killed over 1,000 Syrians in the last few months."  Well, guess what, Mr. Ceren.   According to B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, during the last three years Israel has been killing, on average, one Palestinian a day.  And since January of this year, Israel has stepped up its killing to, on average, ten Palestinians a week.  Further, according to B'Tselem, since the beginning of the first Palestinian uprising on Dec. 9, 1987, Israel has killed more than 8,000 Palestinians, trying to crush the rebellion, and Israeli troops have targeted journalists and children for death.

Mr. Ceren, your diatribe that turns the facts on their head, is a quintessential ultra-Zionist polemic.

    

  

    

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:48 AM EDT
rsather139

when it attacked its neighbors in 1967.

No. Not in the slightest.

Palestinians and Syrian citizens who had been ethnically-cleansed by Israel

Last I checked the Syrian citizens who lived in the Golan are still there. And funny thing, they don't want to return to Syria anymore. Amazing what a productive economy can do.

"Israel" keeps getting bigger and bigger

So, I'm going to assume the Sinai does not exist in your world?

  • 12 votes
#4.1 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:04 AM EDT
jackzg-

P. Thomas,

Simply for your education:

I wasn't aware that the Golan is now part if Israel.

...since its founding in 1948, Israel has never defined its own borders.

GOLAN HEIGHTS LAW
December 14, 1981

    This legislation, extending Israeli law to the area of the Golan Heights was adopted by the Knesset by a majority of 63 against 21. Among those in favor were eight members of the Labor Party opposition. In presenting the law, Prime Minister Begin stated that the time had come to implement the government's policy regarding the Golan Heights citing Syria's implacable hostility to Israel, and the recent deployment of Syrian missiles on Lebanese soil -- a provocation of crisis proportions. He reminded the ministers that the Syrian president had recently rejected any ties with Israel, even if the PLO would recognize Israel.

Text:

  1. The Law, jurisdiction and administration of the state shall apply to the Golan Heights, as described in the Appendix.

  2. This Law shall become valid on the day of its passage in the Knesset.

  3. The Minister of the Interior shall be charged with the implementation of this Law, and he is entitled, in consultation with the Minister of Justice, to enact regulations for its implementation and to formulate in regulations transitional provisions concerning the continued application of regulations, orders, administrative orders, rights and duties which were in force on the Golan Heights prior to the application of this Law.

Your counter may be that the U.N. did not recognize this law. So I'll only remind you that, as Wikipedia points out, "without the unanimous approval of all 5 of the permanent members of the U.N.'s Security Council, the U.N.'s charter only enables it to observe, report on, and make recommendations regarding international conflicts."

I'll also suggest reading the final article of Chapter VII of the U.N. charter.

Anyway, you sound informed, so I merely wanted to add to your knowledge.

  • 10 votes
#4.2 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:17 PM EDT
aRTieA

jackzg-1775110

That was a great reply, one of the best I have seen on NV. Very well done!

  • 9 votes
#4.3 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:27 PM EDT
jackzg-

thanks, bud

  • 6 votes
#4.4 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 4:27 PM EDT
infrared

israel approves its own self expansion so its all ok...

  • 3 votes
#4.5 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 2:56 PM EDT
curtonthebeach

jackzg-

Great job on the reply, it also shows why israel refuses to join the ICC.

Three of these states—Israel, Sudan and the United States—have "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their former representatives' signature of the statute.

These 3 states violates the human rights of people either at home or abroad at such rate that they would be under constant indictment in the ICC if they signed the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

  • 3 votes
#4.6 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 1:01 PM EDT
aRTieA

China and India have not signed it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_Parties_to_the_Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court

The following have not ratified it...

Algeria

Angola

Armenia

Bahamas

Bahrain

Cameroon

Cape Verde

Côte d'Ivoire[F]

Egypt

Eritrea

Guinea-Bissau

Haiti

Iran

Jamaica

Kuwait

Kyrgyzstan

Monaco

Morocco

Mozambique

Oman

Philippines

Russia

São Tomé and Príncipe

Solomon Islands

Syrian Arab Republic

Thailand

Ukraine

United Arab Emirates

Uzbekistan

Yemen

Zimbabwe

  • 6 votes
#4.7 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 1:27 PM EDT
Reply
Buzz of the Orient

It's time to upgrade the numbers of civilians slaughtered by Syria in the present uprising to 1,100. It's getting to be quite a stretch for the media to pin the blame on Israel for the butchery, isn't it?:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=206791

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2728611/posts

  • 9 votes
Reply#5 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 1:58 AM EDT
HydeWhyte

Since when is "quite a stretch" a problem for most media when it comes to reporting about Israel? Personally, I think they went way beyond "quite a stretch" a long time ago and now reside firmly in the realm of lala-land.

  • 4 votes
#5.1 - Thu Jun 9, 2011 1:06 PM EDT
Reply
mtsr1

Your article Sir, or madaam, was a pleasant surprise.

Not what I expected.

+1 article and the clarity is somewhat a relief.

  • 5 votes
Reply#6 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:30 AM EDT
chaos99972

Most of the "protesters" were paid by Syria, a "nation" now using artillery and snipers against its own civilian population.

Why should Isreal stand by and let Syria attack them through paid miscreants? That makes no sense at all.

  • 8 votes
Reply#7 - Tue Jun 7, 2011 11:22 AM EDT
Meloney

Here's my problem with the seeded op ed:

...partisans with press cards lined up to condemn the Israelis for defending their borders. The problem, of course, is that it’s hard to justify hysteria over Israel when Assad has killed over 1,000 Syrians in the last few months. Critics would point to the disproportionate obsession with the Jewish State and suggest that it had long ago reached pathological levels.

The author frames the issue as either pro-Israel (as defined by the author's ideology) or not when there are other positions. This is an Israel-centric point of view that says all reports can be assessed on the basis of good/bad PR for Israel. While it is certainly possible to restrict one's point of view narrowly to Israeli-centrism it is not the only point of view (sounds so obvious).

So yes, without restricting one's pov entirely to the Israeli-centric one it is possible to report on Israel's actions and the breakdown of authority in Syria's government. Unless or until all agreethat the Israeli-centric pov with it's incumbent ideology is the only legitimate means to interpret events there will be presentations that may be unflattering or misfitting the preferred PR of that point of view.

The "problem" the author dwells upon (to justify hysteria over Israel when Assad has killed over 1,000 Syrians) is actually not an issue at all for non-subscribers. In their minds it is equally as valid to cover both events. So we have US-centric reportage on the actions of Israel that focus on assumptions based in US foreign policy and so on for alternate points of view.

I understand the author's complaint but do not agree with the premise which would narrowly define legitimate interests.

  • 3 votes
Reply#8 - Wed Jun 8, 2011 7:43 AM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

Meloney ,

Are you saying there is no connection between the Naksa "protests" and the Assad suppression of Syrians ?

  • 4 votes
#8.1 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:48 AM EDT
Meloney

No. Other than saying I understand how the author invents a problem in that realm for people who do not share the Israeli-centric point of view I didn't mention the connection.

  • 2 votes
#8.2 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:46 AM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

So you admit there is a connection . And these "protests" were nothing
more than a ruse to distract attention away from Assad's bloody suppression .

  • 6 votes
#8.3 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:39 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

And these "protests" were nothing more than a ruse to distract attention away from Assad's bloody suppression .

That in fact is the actual topic, which is implicit in the sarcasm of its title, rather than what some viners prefer to do, to use it as a venue to bash Israel.

  • 6 votes
#8.4 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:18 PM EDT
aRTieA

Some people don't realize when they are being used.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=224030

Hundreds of angry refugees had tried to storm the headquarters of the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) in the Yarmouk camp on the edges of the Syrian capital.

They accused the group of sacrificing Palestinian lives by encouraging protesters to try to enter the Golan Heights, where several were shot by Israeli forces.

  • 7 votes
#8.5 - Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:28 PM EDT
Reply
SergioHollowayDeleted
P. Thomas

Author Omri Ceren, a hardline Zionist, wants us to believe that Israel is "defending its sovereignty" by opening fire on Syrian citizens attempting to return to their homes and communities on the Golan Heights, from which they were ethnically cleansed by Israel after it attacked its neighbors and seized the Golan in 1967. Israel cleansed more than 50 villages of their Syrian inhabitants and property owners, and has replaced them with illegal Jews-only agricultural communes, planted vinyards and developed a lucrative wine industry that sells "Israeli" wines freely in the US.

Actually, the unarmed Naska Day demonstrators were shot to death by Israeli soldiers as they tried to cross into Israeli-occupied Syrian territory, as reported accurately by the Associated Press on June 5 . They were trying to reclaim their own property. I wasn't aware, Mr. Ceren, that the Golan was part of Israel, that it was the "border of Israel," or that Israeli soldiers were "defending their borders." Or do you want to steal and annex the Syrian Golan Heights, too, as you are attempting to do with your theft and illegal annexation of Jordan's East Jerusalem?

Ceren goes on with the usual blame game: "Assad [the president of Syria] has killed over 1,000 Syrians in the last few months." Well guess what, Mr. Ceren, according to the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, during the last three years Israel has killed, on average, one Palestinian a day. And since January of this year, Israel has stepped up its killing to, on average, ten Palestinians a week. According to B'Tselem, since the beginning of the first Palestinian uprising on Dec. 9, 1987, Israel has killed more than 8,000 people, many of them children. And Israeli troops have an odious and well-documented record of targeting children and journalists for death. During its "Operation Cast Lead" attack on Gaza in 2008-09, Israel unleashed its advanced weapons, including white phosphorus, provided by obedient US taxpayers to kill more than 1,400 people, most of them civilians.

Ceren whines about Arabs "training children to become terorists." He conveniently overlooks the anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian hate spewed forth by radical rabbis and parents in illegal, Jews-only settlements built on Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory, such as Itarem and Kiryat Arba, who teach their children to hate by teaching them Jewish supremacy in Palestine. These radicalized kids are now growing up and joining the Israeli military, and they scare the establishment Israeli military brass to death.

The radical Rabbi Ovadia Josef, founder and spiritual leader of the extremist Shas Party of Israel, has declared from the pulpit to crowds of cheering Jewish followers, "The Arabs are vipers, we must exterminate their seed." But what does America hear from the dominant voices in the mainstream US press?, that "radical Islamic clerics preach hate." The Shas Party has now been welcomed into two successive Israeli governments.

Omri Ceren and his radical Zionist views must be exposed and forcefully rejected by an informed American public.

  • 2 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:09 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

Syrian citizens attempting to return to their homes and communities on the Golan Heights, from which they were ethnically cleansed by Israel after it attacked its neighbors and seized the Golan in 1967.

Not at all accurate .

illegal Jews-only agricultural communes, planted vinyards and developed a lucrative wine industry that sells "Israeli" wines freely in the US.

I didn't know about the Israeli wines . Thanks for the info . I'll be sure to look for them the next time I buy wine .

  • 7 votes
#10.1 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:49 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

...and those wines are better than you think.

http://irenesharonhodes.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/israel-wins-wine-%E2%80%98world-cup-2011/

  • 7 votes
#10.2 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:11 PM EDT
nonStitiousZealot

L'chaim Buzz .

  • 7 votes
#10.3 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:35 PM EDT
Buzz of the Orient

L'chaim nSZ, am yisroel chai. In order to comply with the UA as to use of English language, the expression "L'chaim" means "to life". It is the toast given in Hebrew on taking a drink of wine. (Very different, is it not, from what might be said by shaheeds and those who glorify them - and THERE is the difference in the philosophy of existence between different peoples.)

  • 7 votes
#10.4 - Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:27 PM EDT
HydeWhyte

Thanks for the info, Buzz. I find that knowing such terminology enhances the ability to be reciprocally polite and understanding when such terms are used during a conversation. Aka it's nice to know what the heck they are talking about! :)

  • 5 votes
#10.5 - Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:35 PM EDT
Reply
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